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I’ve been researching for about a week now on how to make the most of a machine submerged in mineral oil. I’d like to try to push 5 ghz. =D Bet that’d be nice to see on a Q9550. I’ve seen 4.7, so it might be possible. My real goal is just as high as I can get though; so if it’s not 5, I’ll still be able to sleep. No reservoir is needed. Right now I’m toying with the idea of TECs sandwiched between a cold plate and a water block and fixed to anything hot. My main concern is the efficiency of TECs, they seem to not play well with anything that runs hot (ironic shortcoming for a method of cooling, I know). What I mean by this is that cooling efficiency decreases exponentially as temperature increases, that’s a curve starting high and ending low on a graph. If we’re not overclocking, TECs would be a fantastic option. However, if we’re overclocking and increasing voltage, TECs soon lose their appeal and are outperformed by normal water cooling methods. Now this is all fine and dandy, but my system would be submerged in mineral oil. I’m trying to figure out how this would affect TECs. I’m looking for intelligent conjecture, with a rational explanation behind whatever idea is presented. I’m not trying to attain sub zero temperatures. I don’t see the point. I’m overclocking. Food for though:Condensation is not an issue when running TECs in a machine submerged in oil. Since there is no air (or extraneous amounts of) around any of the components being cooled, there is no water to condense. In a normal submerged system there is pretty much just one system wide temperature, thanks to how wonderfully the oil distributes the heat. How do you think introducing water blocks and TECs will effect this trend? The more TECs added, the more power required. I’ll most likely require two additional power supplies for 4 TECs (north bridge, CPU, and GPUs). With three power supplies in the oil, would the temperature rise by a negligible amount?I’d like to run the north bridge and CPU on it’s own power supply, radiator, pump, and reservoir; the graphics cards on another set. Excessive, or efficient?I’ll be running only distilled water through the water blocks, with the exception of dye and something to kill all the tiny saboteurs. I toyed with the idea of methyl alcohol, but I couldn’t find enough data on the long term effects. I intend to suspend all electronics a good distance off the bottom of my enclosure. A distance proportionate to the volume of water circulating through both systems. This way, if ever a leak occurs, the water falls to the bottom of the enclosure and the electronic components are all left unharmed. Even if the leak was directly over a graphics card, the chance of a short circuit is pretty low, oil is amazing stuff. I don’t think it’s been tested just how far temperatures could be pushed before a system lost stability while submerged. The water isn’t cooling the GPU/CPU, it’s specifically cooling the TEC. The oil would be heated by the hottest components in the PC. The heat would be drawn off those components through the water blocks. In fact, water would carry heat out of the system much faster than oil would. The oil is acting as insulation for all of the TECs, and while being piped through it’s own radiator, would offer some pretty significant cooling. Considering most of the heat generated by the TECs will be carried off in the water, I imagine this would be unlikely. I could be mistaken though, this is only how I think it would work. If someone knows otherwise, please!

yes i know how tec waterblocks work. My point is why water cool when the oil can cool itthe oil will be heated by every component submerged in it. That’s why it helps overclocking as much as it does. Every mosfet, choke, resister, cap. Putting a water block over them blocks the oil and defeats the purpose of having gallons of oil to act as a massive heatsinkoverall it is my train of thought that the waterblocks are going to prevent the oil bath form doing it’s job and that it is not worth the effort of building an oilbath system that is only going to do a small fraction of it’s pourpose

505090 said:

yes i know how tec waterblocks work. My point is why water cool when the oil can cool itthe oil will be heated by every component submerged in it. That’s why it helps overclocking as much as it does. Every mosfet, choke, resister, cap. Putting a water block over them blocks the oil and defeats the purpose of having gallons of oil to act as a massive heatsinkoverall it is my train of thought that the waterblocks are going to prevent the oil bath form doing it’s job and that it is not worth the effort of building an oilbath system that is only going to do a small fraction of it’s pourpose

I realize that every component generating heat contributes to the maximum temperature. expensive, bottles of mineral oil is actually very expensive2. very messy, greasy and nasty3. only marginally better than a good air cooling solutionMerh. Whether you are transferring heat from metal to water, metal to air, metal to oil you’re still transferring heat. The difference is the efficiency. Air is a shiy medium when it comes to heat transfer. Oil is superior to air and can be directly substituted. Alcohol is superior to water, but because of the possible cons, we stick to distilled water. The issue here exists because oil is a better thermoconductor than air. More heat will transfer from the water block and tubing composing the TEC/water cooling system than would be transferred were it an air system. You wouldn’t tell someone not to use water cooling because they’d be interfering with air’s potential, would you? We’ve used air to cool our PCs longer than anything else, we’re familiar with it’s potential. We’ve pretty familiar with water’s potential. We seek to improve water cooling by supplementing our distilled water with chemicals that lower its freezing temperature. We’d all use alcohol if we were confident it had no negative side effects. I’m substituting oil for air because it has no cons. In fact, when coupled with water cooling, it acts as a safety net. As I said earlier, it insulates against condensation, as well as prevents leaks in the water cooling system from being a fatal occurrence. The potential for overclock that it provides immediately makes up the cost. I’m trying to provide further cooling to overclock that much more. Yes, it’s redundant; that’s the idea. The idea I’m interested in is the first that you brought to the table. How significant do you think the rise in temperature, as a result of the TEC/waterblocks, would be?Merh. Whether you are transferring heat from metal to water, metal to air, metal to oil you’re still transferring heat. The difference is the efficiency. Air is a shiy medium when it comes to heat transfer. Oil is superior to air and can be directly substituted. Alcohol is superior to water, but because of the possible cons, we stick to distilled water. The issue here exists because oil is a better thermoconductor than air. More heat will transfer from the water block and tubing composing the TEC/water cooling system than would be transferred were it an air system. You wouldn’t tell someone not to use water cooling because they’d be interfering with air’s potential, would you? We’ve used air to cool our PCs longer than anything else, we’re familiar with it’s potential. We’ve pretty familiar with water’s potential. We seek to improve water cooling by supplementing our distilled water with chemicals that lower its freezing temperature. We’d all use alcohol if we were confident it had no negative side effects. I’m substituting oil for air because it has no cons. In fact, when coupled with water cooling, it acts as a safety net. As I said earlier, it insulates against condensation, as well as prevents leaks in the water cooling system from being a fatal occurrence. The potential for overclock that it provides immediately makes up the cost. I’m trying to provide further cooling to overclock that much more. Yes, it’s redundant; that’s the idea. The idea I’m interested in is the first that you brought to the table. How significant do you think the rise in temperature, as a result of the TEC/waterblocks, would be?

Bluescreendeath is right on four out of four counts. And there are some other problems. Not just in your proposed rig, but in principle. You haven’t actually eliminated air cooling, you’re just doing it at a different place (the radiator). Your air cooled radiator is cooling the oil! Your setup won’t work any better than a well designed water loop. Really. Because using ambient air to cool the system will give you a running temperature of about 7C over room temp at best. Bath, blocks, fans: no difference. dry ice or even liquid nitrogen. Now, if you want to rig a chilled bath, that would be kewl. It will take a lot of TEC’s to handle all that heat, though. It’s done in autos to keep the water from freezing in cold weather, not to make it a better coolant. Pure water has a greater heat capacity than methanol. The New Number Two

You also are looking past the fact that mineral oil will also degrade the o rings and tubing for the liquid cooling loop for the TEC blocks. $$$2. actual cooling ability vs. ‘Theoretical Great Idea Concept’3. $$$4. practicality5. the mess (good luck keeping that container sealed and no oil leaking)6. $$$7. good luck RMA’ing a dead board or card dripping in oil8. there are better ways to get what you want and WOW your friends

Thenewnumber2: The oil will not reach temperatures bellow ambient. I know this. The water, however, will. I know what people getting those “megaoverclocks” are using, I’ve obviously researched more than you have. On alcohol, I wasn’t talking of mixing water and alcohol, I was talking of using only alcohol. Btw, no one running water cooling is using pure water trust me on that. The stuff is almost impossible to come by. Even if you do manage purchase “pure water,” there are more than likely still a ton of lose ions floating around. It’s also VERY dangerous to work with. Alcohol is also a less viscous than water, how do you think that effects turbulence? Taking that into account, how efficient does alcohol cooling become? Also, alcohol requires no additives to maintain temperatures bellow freezing. There’s so many variable you guys aren’t looking into here. There are members of this very forum that have seen better results cooling with alcohol than water. It’s not about the lowest temperature you’re able to achieve. It’s about the most efficient transfer of heat. Heck, it’s not messy to set up in the first place as long as you’re careful. I don’t plan on piddling about inside the case because I like the feel of having my hands submerged in my computer oil. The TEC/waterblock are on top of that. Prices incurred from TEC/Waterblocks would be: a few decent waterblocks, some cold plates, tubing, fittings, radiators, fans, power supplies, TECs, etc. All in all, about $600 worth of merchandise. Well within my budget constraints. TECs are ridiculously cheap. A new 226 watt TEC is $30 from a PC enthusiast site, I think I saw that on frozenpc. They’re around $15 from an electric supply store. Ebay has tons of TECs for any price you’re willing to pay. The cooling provided by oil CIRCULATING THROUGH A RADIATOR is better than air. This is a fact. If you’d like to argue it, dont I don’t want your advice. Run a google search. I’ve run a couple hundred now. Don’t watch a video. Look at charts and graphs. Read work logs. Email the companies involved with the experiments. Oil just sitting around a computer doesn’t help cool, you’re right. BUT strangely enough, with no means of cooling their oil, puget system maintained a simple oil bath for over a year. They had no fans, no radiator, just oil. The system ran at 80c for over a year and maintained stability. You can’t usually RMA a product you’ve overclocked, so that’s a silly argument.

Puget Sound’s first oil PC had one problem. They had no rad to pull the heat out of the oil. It ran fine all day (secretaries PC), but if she left it on overnight, the oil warmed to the point of shutting the PC down the next day. They had to leave it off for a full day. And it wasn’t a very powerful PC either. So they added a rad and pump for the oil, problem fixed. Even if you TEC and watercool the CPU and GPU, the oil will still get warm, probably warm enough to begin to overheat the NB, mosfets, etc. So you’ll need a rad for the general oil, and the rad for the WC loop. You do know that if you need to get your CPU running at ambient at load you’ll be at probably 400 500 watts of heat on the hot side of the TEC? You’ll need a BIG rad to cool that. If you plan to TEC the GPU’s too, LOL, better have TWO seperate WC loops, the GPU’s will need at a min a 120×4 rad. Don’t forget the 12V 40+ amp seperate PSUs you’ll have to buy, ohh 3 of them I guess if you do the CPU and both GPU’s. In short, I thinks it’s a complicated fail waiting to happen. But, it’s your stuff, go for it. Post pics!Wonder what smoke looks like in Mineral oil?You can’t usually RMA a product you’ve overclocked, so that’s a silly argument.

Yes, you can, depending on the vendor. So, by trying to single out my comment and then rebutting that ‘usually you can’t/that’s a silly argument’ you shoot holes in your own rebuttal. eVGA ships software for OC cards with their graphics cards, and their motherboards are shipped with software to modify BIOS settings from the OS (for those not familiar with BIOS tinkering).

505090 said:

then why would you post in a forum

Because I ask specific questions? Why would I want something that doesn’t answer my question? Or better yet, why would I want false information or misinformed arguments? Anyway. Back on topic!Conumdrum. They added the radiator to cool it below what they initially believed were unsuitable temperatures It never once shut off. They removed the radiator later because of it’s negative aesthetic value. They said the employee (they never state what their position is) kept forgetting to put the computer in stand by and it still maintained stability. Not one single time did the computer become unstable or shutdown of it’s own accord. “We have taken the radiator back off the machine, simply because we think it looks cleaner and nicer without it. As long as we put the machine into standby at night, it doesn’t get too warm. However, the employee using the machine tends to forget to put it into standby 90% of the time, so it is running at a constant 70C, but again, with complete stability.”The machine they used was by no standard a weak pc. In fact on their second system, they used the MOST ADVANCED parts available to consumers. The qmax of that peltier is only 170. But it should be noted, I’m not running an i7. Also, that is the most powerful TEC needed, and still only $50. I guarantee if I spent 30 minutes looking, I could find it for at least half the price elsewhere.)PEOPLE! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! I’M LOOKING FOR CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM HERE! I NEED ARGUMENTS BASED ON A CONCRETE UNDERSTANDING OF THERMODYNAMICS! I don’t want you to tell me that what I’m doing is blaspheming the overclocking community. The principles I discuss are completely legitimate. If you’d stop and think for a bit, I’m sure you’d realize that.

Yes, you can, depending on the vendor. So, by trying to single out my comment and then rebutting that ‘usually you can’t/that’s a silly argument’ you shoot holes in your own rebuttal. eVGA ships software for OC cards with their graphics cards, and their motherboards are shipped with software to modify BIOS settings from the OS (for those not familiar with BIOS tinkering).

I said USUALLY. You can’t deny that USUALLY you can’t RMA an overclocked producted. Only a minority of the time does a warranty cover overclocking, thus the USUALLY. Before I decided on submerging my comptuer, the FTW board caught my eye for its warranty as well as its quality, I’m completely aware that there are exceptions to almost any rule. However, just because some companies extend some of their warranties to apply to overclocked products does not make the trend at all common. I’m a member there and am very interested in the replies you will get.
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